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#128397: "Couldn't meld black 3's to go out"

implemented: Tämä ehdotus on toteutettu

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24. Jun 2024 15:11 • 4everblessed • Ohjelmoijat eivät ole vielä löytäneet bugia:

Sorry, can't get image share to work. I think it's move #275.

24. Jun 2024 15:50 • ufm • Tämä ei ole bugi:

I received exactly the same question before, so I'm reposting the answer:

First of all, in public domain games, there are so many variants and house rules all over the world.
Obviously, I can't implement all of them.
Besides, adding too many variants hampers matchmaking and confuses players.
So I don't implement variants which are neither widely accepted nor improve the game significantly.
FYI, I refer to more credible rules sources compared to others (e.g. Bicycle, Pagat, Britannica, and etc.) and other popular online platforms to decide which rule is widely accepted or not.

In Canasta, the final discard is generally not needed to go out (your mileage may vary, but see above).
Players can either go out by discarding the last card in their hand, or melding all cards in hand.
So, 'discarding is always the last action' is definitely wrong.

Bicycle rules page describes:
- A set of three or four black threes (without wild cards) may be melded only when a player goes out.

This does not include when you leave a single card in hand, because you didn't go out at that point.

Pagat's description is in line with yours:
- Black threes cannot be melded, except in one exceptional case. A player who is going out may meld a group of three or four black threes as part of that last turn. Such a meld of black threes cannot contain wild cards.

These two sources describe the process differently.
So I consulted the last of three credible sources I referred and it more leaned to the former: www.britannica.com/topic/canasta/Going-out

Thus I opted the former option.
I agree this rule varies, but I don't think this one deserves a separate option.

27. Jun 2024 1:54 • 4everblessed • Tämä ei ole bugi:

I like how meticulous you are with the rules. It keeps us all honest :-)

11. Oct 2024 21:36 • Robarkson • Tämä ei ole bugi:

"In Canasta, the final discard is generally not needed to go out (your mileage may vary, but see above).
Players can either go out by discarding the last card in their hand, or melding all cards in hand.
So, 'discarding is always the last action' is definitely wrong."

Well... yes and no. Discarding is *optional* in the sense that you can go out and have no cards left to discard, but discarding is required if you have at least one card left in your hand. (Unless....see below)

"Bicycle rules page describes:
- A set of three or four black threes (without wild cards) may be melded only when a player goes out.

This does not include when you leave a single card in hand, because you didn't go out at that point."

If you HAVE to discard if you have a card to discard with, then melding all your cards but one is in fact "going out".

That is *unless* you allow a player to get down to one card and not be required to discard at all. And yes, I have seen that version used online.

Requiring the melding of the Black 3s to be the absolute last thing done is different from my experience but is actually kind of an interesting twist

Now that I know what the rules are its no big deal to me either way.

12. Nov 2024 4:46 • Lundvike • Tämä ei ole bugi:

I see your explanation above and I can see how this is a "house rule", but I have never played in person or online where you can't meld 3 x Black threes and then discard a single to end the round. Maybe add it as an option??

7. Feb 2025 23:17 • frankenfossil • Tämä ei ole bugi:

Hello, would it be ok to update the rules list to specify the number of black 3s needed? I didn't click onto the bicycle rules page so I only saw the following under the 'how to play' tab:

Black 3s
Black 3s may only be melded when you go out. The black 3 meld cannot include any wild cards, and it must be your final action - no final discard is permitted. Each black 3 is worth 5 points.

So I didn't realise I couldn't do it with only 2 black 3s (I had assumed I could meld onto the red three that was already there) and then was wondering why it wasn't working 😅

20. Feb 2025 11:31 • Jonhinch • Tämä ei ole bugi:

>Bicycle rules page describes:
>- A set of three or four black threes (without wild cards) may be melded only when a player goes out.
>
>This does not include when you leave a single card in hand, because you didn't go out at that point.

I have checked every set of rules I can find online and offline and I can't find anywhere where this is explicitly stated.

Furthermore the bicycle rules say:

A player goes out when they get rid of the last card in their hand by discarding or melding it, provided that their side has melded at least one canasta or they complete a canasta while going out.

So the process of going out allows for discarding or just melding. I see "going out" as: You meld to your hearts content. You meld Black threes if you have 3 or 4. You either have used your last card or you discard it.

The official Waddington rules which I guess have been used in the UK since 1950's (I can't yet find some of the 1951 USA rules.) include rules for what happens on mistakes and misplays etc. They therefore have been considered and are fairly thought out. I have only got poor scans of them so I haven't added them to boardgamegeek yet.

The first rule in the Going out section is "A player *goes out* (Italics) when he (legally) gets rid of the last card of his hand , either by discard or meld.

This therefore seems the priority rule.

Curiously Black Threes only seem to get a mention on rule 18:

18. A meld is valid if it contains at least two *natural* (Not wild) cards of the same rank, and not more than three wild cards. But black treys may not be melded unless the player *goes out* in the same turn. Jokers and deuces may never be melded separately from natural cards.

So by my reading of that you could play 2 black threes and joker and go out. I wasn't aware of that if it is the case. But equally I thought you could never have more wild cards than natural card in a meld and from that it appears you can.

Does the current BGA implementation meet the spirit of the rules? In my view it doesn't. Here is why:

For going out concealed (extra) 100 are awarded.

To go out concealed you will have very few melds. In a 5000 point game 100 points in not that significant therefore it would seem wrong (or being extremely limiting) to stop people going out conceals without one discard.

If you are playing the two card draw variant (Waddington rules never allowed that but I assume some do somewhere) you are always going to gain a card each go. Therefore until you have a lot of different melds you just have to be lucky and not skilful to go out with black threes in your hand.

In short making melding black threes the absolute final move of going out makes the game more about luck than skill, lengthens the game play and increases the chances of the deck being exhausted rather than players ending a round. To me that is not Canasta and while it makes little difference to Robarkson I think it makes a lot of difference and therefore this is a bug or should at least be an option for people that play Canasta for real.

It is fantastic that Canasta has been added to BGA because it is my main gaming site and with all my other games inspired by BGA I don't often get chance to play it for real. I therefore appreciate having online opponents and being able to play games at my pace.

20. Feb 2025 13:28 • ufm • Tämä ehdotus on toteutettu:

Again, as I said in the forum, the difference comes from the interpretation and the wording:
My (and many other sources') interpretation is simple: 'Going out' is emptying the hand, that's it.

Indeed some sources explicitly allow 'going out after melding black 3s during the same turn'.
However, this implies 'going out' is a different action from 'melding black 3s'.

Imo 'the spirit of the rules' argument is not so plausible, because going out concealed itself is rare and 100 points is not so rewarding compared to its difficulty after all.
Also, there is no centralized organization which governs classic Canasta rules all over the world, and I think among users commented in this post nobody has ever asked the original developers of Canasta.
UK is not even the origin of Canasta, you know.

But, when I playtested both versions today, allowing a black 3 meld just before going out actually made the finish much more flexible, especially in double draw games as you said.
Considering most BGA Canasta tables are 2-player games, implementing this would significantly improve the game flow, I guess. Implemented.

20. Feb 2025 15:55 • Jonhinch • Tämä ehdotus on toteutettu:

Thank you for you time and efforts once again. I am aware Canasta was South American and then some formal rules were developed by something called the Regency Club. I assume the UK rules came from a committee (5 people are listed as the Canasta Rules Analysis Committee) looking at those rules but I haven't managed to find them yet. I am sad enough I would enjoy reading them :-) Especially as the UK rules people decided ACABA was a good rule that needed added.

21. Feb 2025 5:05 • ufm • Tämä ehdotus on toteutettu:

Unfortunately, as I said before, 'Acaba' rule is very prone to abuse. It will not be accepted.

24. Jul 2025 15:18 • DorianJ1007 • Tämä ehdotus on toteutettu:

Table 704304468

I ended up with a Black 3 and another card in my hand but I was not able to end the game by any move possible. The only thing I could do with the black 3 was discard and no other action was being allowed while the tool tip said I could meld the black 3 if there is a black 3 and another card remaining in my hand.

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#128397: "Couldn't meld black 3's to go out"

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