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#37708: "Hecate vs heroes"

fixed: Bugi on korjattu

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Santorini #160232420

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Säännöt: pelin sääntöä ei ole noudatettu

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31. Mar 2021 19:28 • Orta Gac • Ohjelmoijat eivät ole vielä löytäneet bugia:

I think this bug might apply to more heroes than only Polyphemus. The problem is that the power is only discarded at the end of the turn. Since the turn is interrupted, it doesn't end and the power isn't discarded as it should be. For example this might also happen against Achilles, Atalanta, Heracles... This matchup also made me wonder what happens if the hero tries to use its power but is interrupted at the very first instant (for example, if Bellerophon jumps over Hecate or if Achilles builds its first block over Hecate). Do they lose their power, although they didn't use it? I think it would make sense to lose the power (because they intended to use it and gained information because of that).

1. Apr 2021 01:36 • quietmint • Kehittäjät ovat vahvistaneet bugin:

Yep, thanks. Hecate should be banned against Hero Powers.

1. Apr 2021 15:17 • Orta Gac • Kehittäjät ovat vahvistaneet bugin:

I know that if you ban Hecate against heroes all the problems are solved, but isn't this matchup allowed by the rules?

1. Apr 2021 15:34 • quietmint • Kehittäjät ovat vahvistaneet bugin:

Our banned matchups are (already) more extensive than the official rules. We intend to deviate from the official rules here.

In cases where the interaction of two powers is too complex for us to code -or- if the interaction is causing confusion for BGA players -or- if we determine the interaction is very unfair, we will add more bans.

Some examples:
boardgamearena.com/bug?id=21093 - too difficult to code
boardgamearena.com/bug?id=29287 - confusing
boardgamearena.com/bug?id=33571 - unfair

I think the official rules don't include *any* bans between normal gods and heroes, because they don't expect you to mix them in the same game (that's for expert players only). For example, the official rules do not ban Circe vs heroes, but this is clearly unfair and must be banned.

1. Apr 2021 16:03 • quietmint • Bugi on korjattu:

Version 210401-1601: Banned Hecate vs all heroes

Also, the "How to play" page now lists the banned matchups for each power: en.doc.boardgamearena.com/Gamehelpsantorini

1. Apr 2021 22:07 • gretirse • Bugi on korjattu:

The original rules actually consider Gods vs Heroes matchups and ban Nemesis vs Theseus for instance. More bans have indeed been added later (available in the official app) for various reasons (e.g., confusing interactions, balance).
For Hecate vs Heroes, I think this can be fixed and am happy to help to reduce Hecate's ban list.

4. Apr 2021 17:39 • quietmint • Bugi on korjattu:

It's my view that this SHOULD remain banned, no matter what the official rules may say.

It is still my view that the treatment of hero powers vs God powers is incomplete at best, but mostly they did not consider these interactions at all. Remember, the official rules do not ban Clio vs. any heroes, but they should (it is not fair for Clio to steal a one-time power, use it herself, and discard it... nor is it fair for Clio to steal a one-time power, use it herself, and return it).

The situation with Hecate vs. heroes is the same. There's no fair way to resolve the problem of a partially-cancelled hero turn. Imagine a one-time power related to moving, where the hero's movement is valid but the building is not. It's not fair to cancel only the build portion of the turn and still discard the one-time power about movement (you wouldn't have wasted the one-time ability if you couldn't do the whole turn). Nor is it fair to let them keep the one-time power (since technically it was used). Nor is it fair to just cancel the entire turn. There's no good way to resolve this interaction. The rules here are completely broken. It should reman banned to remain fair.

4. Apr 2021 22:43 • Orta Gac • Bugi on korjattu:

(I suppose you mean Circe)
I must disagree with you. I think Hecate vs Heroes should not be banned. The heroes can still use their power as in a normal game and if well used, it could be very difficult for Hecate to counter (for example, Bellerophon is a clear example of a hero that would be very strong against Hecate). The thing is, as an hero you have to make sure you use your power well. If you suspect Hecate might interrupt your turn, then just don't use your power at all and save it for later. I understand that implementing Hecate vs Heroes could lead to some changes (and that would be perfectly understandable)... But I wouldn't mind to play with an hero against Hecate, I wouldn't feel like I was in disadvantage.

5. Apr 2021 01:39 • quietmint • Bugi on korjattu:

Oops, yes, I meant Circe. Hecate seems quite harsh to me. Losing your turn seems like a severe punishment already. Losing your turn and losing your one-time power seems far too aggressive. I would not play that matchup. I guess if others do not feel the same way, perhaps it is worth fixing this so some of the heroes can be unbanned...

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#37708: "Hecate vs heroes"

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